Topic: Official TGS Spoiler Thread

[Archelous]

ALL SPOILERS BEHIND THIS SENTENCE.

Wow. Just... Wow.

I really am at a loss, though Jacy made some great comments in the other thread I agree with wholeheartedly.

First off, I do have to say that after reading Sanderson's other books, and re-reading Wheel of Time in the past year... I could definitely tell the writing styles apart. Of course, that's to be understood. But I felt like at times I could almost tell when it was Brandon, and certain sentences or scenes, that were just pure Jordan.

Again, this was all from reading, I don't do too well with audio books, not enough of an attention span for that unless I'm reading along, which almost defeats the purpose (and costs $80...).

Anyway... All I was blown away, I definitely rank this as one of the top books in the series. That could be because I was getting used to the monotony of the last couple, but I was hooked from the first chapter (Which I think was all Sanderson, it just felt like him way more than Jordan.)

I need to say, when I heard AMOL was going to be broken into (another) trilogy, I was disappointed, and felt cheapened. I was angered I'd have to spend more money and time to get to an ending I've already divested myself into for 10 years.

But... They called my bluff utterly.

And now, I've fallen back in love with the friends I had thought I'd lost. Perhaps when all is said and done, I'll be able to appreciate the past few novels more. Maybe a re-read once AMOL is published, I'll be able to enjoy Winters Heart, Crossroads of Twilight, and ALL of Knife of Dreams.

The Gathering Storm certainly helped heal that wound. Enough emotional babbling, let me get into the nitty gritty.

Perrin/Faile: Blah. Not much done to repair my intense dislike here, but I found the fact that they left them out, minus some important details, the better it was to read about them.

Egwene: Wow, I pulled a complete 180 with her. I usually read the Salidar/Aes Sedai plot lines just looking for hints and tidbits to come with the main Ta'veren. Not anymore, that was a great storyline. It was good to have the White Tower finally come back. Her finally standing up to Elaida in front of the sitters, thrilled me. Siuan and Bryne bonding and finally coming to terms with eachother, also a good relief. (And yes Jacy, I also gave quite the laugh about the sword.)

Nynaeve: I was so happy to have more POV's from her. Really enjoyed her frustration with Rand, as I echoed it wholeheartedly. And yes, I hope that little viewing Min had wasn't what I thought either.

Cadsuane: Wow.  She had me pulling my hair out at points. I wonder what she knows about Callandor? Who would be the three linked to Rand in the final battle though..?

Verin: Perfect ending. I never connected her as a darkfriend, or at least having let go of the oaths, until I came here and discussed it, but I never bought her not truly wanting to help Rand. Great character, and sad to see her and Tomas go. What about that letter she gave Mat?? Also, could she have killed Asmodean..? Was she with them/could she travel then? I am almost positive she was in the Waste, so he would know her... Hmm...

The Forsaken: Yeah... Who is even alive and dead now? Dead for sure: Sammael, Rahvin, Semirhage, Asmodean, Be'lal.

Alive for sure: Cyndane (Lanfear), Moghedien, Moridin (Ishamael), Demandred, Mesaana, Aran'gar (Balthamael)

Possibly Alive/Dead/Awaiting Reincarnation: Graendal (Presumably dead), Osan'gar (Aginor)

So that leaves... 5 Dead for sure. Six alive for sure, and two possibly either way. I'd say 7 dead, 6 alive. Graendal is my major question mark, because I believe the DO had said that he only would give those he brought back one last chance, or maybe that was just Lanfear? I'd like to put Osan'gar under actually dead though.

Min: WOW. I did NOT see that one coming, seriously? That relationship has GOT to be close to doomed, I don't think you can come back from that, unless Rand actually tries to reconcile it.

Tuon (Or whatever it is now): Whew. Mat might just side with the Aes Sedai on this one and put her over his knee.

Mat: Oh, dear, charming, scoundrel Mat. The whole Night of the Living Dead thing really was enjoyable. Also, really hoping the Tower of Ghenji is in the next book, I want Moiraine back!

Rand: Wow, where to start here. Him and Moridin's confrontation, Tam and Rand's brief (and hopefully to be continued) reunion, the void within the void, tossing away his morality, Lews Therin, the True Power (Where will that lead?), his almost destruction of an entire city, and finally, his understanding and reconciliation. Though, I was hoping Cadsuane would have more direct results on making Rand "learn to laugh again".

So much in this book finally brought Rand back, and that more than anything makes me countdown for Towers of Midnight.

I can't believe I was ever doubting this series. Just, wow. This really does top the charts for me. Up with TRS and LOC.

[Garrison Bain]

Holy Cow!  My favorite character of all time has reappeared!!!

Hurin the Sniffer!  Incredible!  I got a little tingle up my spine when that happened...hahahaha.

-Garrison Bain-

[Parin Lament]

too bad he's only around for a couple pages, and Rand is such a jackass towards him. Poor hurin   

[Garrison Bain]

Yeah, but that was the old Rand...maybe this new Rand will welcome him in better if they meet again.

I hope so!

-Garrison Bain-

[Garrison Bain]

Here are my comments…of course, I loved the book!  I would’ve loved it even if it were bad.  But, I truly believe this was one of the best books in the series.  (I don’t think any of them could be as good as The Eye of the World…sorry!)

Perrin/Faile: I have to agree with almost everyone as far as this storyline is concerned.  The story is just okay…and I’m really not seeing the point to what Perrin is doing.  He’s defeated the Prophet and chased away some Aiel that were placed scattered around in that area by Moridin…I don’t know it just doesn’t seem to fit with the other story lines.  Plus, he’s almost completely abandoned his “wolf” abilities...although, he was talking to Hopper a little bit in this book.  I’m very interested to find out what he does with the Wolf-dream…maybe that plays into the final battle somehow?   Oh, and Faile…I just really don’t like her character.  Nobody likes a person how is *right* all the time…and who thinks everyone else is a fool.   


Egwene: I think everyone knew this was going to happen to Egwene…we just didn’t know how/when.  I’m glad this storyline is over now and that the Tower is united.  I think it’s important and I think the story was really good.  But, I have to be honest and say that I’m WAY more interested in other storylines.  There is something about her anger and haughtiness that I didn’t like…nevertheless, that battle with the Seanchan was wicked cool!  And beheading the black ajah sisters…good decision!

Nynaeve: Well, at least Nyneave is starting to back up some of the two-rivers folks now.  One of the best parts of the book was when she defended Matt’s honor to Tuon.  That was awesome.  I like how she’s getting some backbone with Cadsuane too…I think somehow those two are going to come to a head and it’s not going to be pretty.

Cadsuane: At first , I liked this woman…but I’ve decided I don’t now.  When she tried to bully Tam…that made my decision.  I like Tam.  Don’t mess with Tam. 

“Who would be the three linked to Rand in the final battle though..?”  Aviandra…Elayne…and Min.  Two of those can channel (Aviandra and Elayne) and that is what it takes to get Callendor to work properly, right?  As for Min, I think she is very important somehow.  If Rand can somehow link to her visions as well…that might prove useful in the final battle.

I don’t know…but I think Brandon is trying to throw us off the trail here.  The three becoming one might just mean that Aviandra, Elayne, and Min get bonded to Rand.

Verin: Man, I really liked Verin all the way through.  It’s going to be very interesting to see what kind of messages she has left with Matt…and apparently others as well.
I love that idea of the book with Darkfriend info in it.  She single handedly undermined that entire Black Ajah.  :-)

The Forsaken: Yeah... These guys don’t make any sense to me.  I like reading their parts…but, you always end those chapters with more questions than answers.  Always.  It’s very frustrating.

Oh, and does anybody really believe that Graendal is dead?  I don’t think so…ha!  Unless I read that rand physically sees the balefire vaporize them…then they are NOT dead in my book!  :-)

Min: Min is way to important of a character to play such a small role.  I think she has a power/ability that is SO VERY important to Rand.  I can’t believe that he’s not using her more than he has.  I mean…she can freaking tell the future man!  Not perfectly, true…but, dude…use what you’ve got! 

Tuon (Futurosityosiosmosisilityomo…or whatever):  The whole Seanchan thing is pretty ridiculous to me…She’s an empress…but, come on!  I seriously hope Matt can continue to handle her and put her in her place. 

Mat: Matt continues to be my favorite character with the best storyline.  I love his humor and lucky-unluckiness.  The Tower of Ghenji just *has* to be in the next book…otherwise I’m going to be really mad!  hahaha

Rand: The best scene was when Simerhog leashed him and forced him to draw from the True Source.  That was a great scene.  She knew something was going wrong when he stood up from his punishment and said “you can’t do any more to me.”  That was awesome.  Rand has been at the very very bottom of anguish, pain, and misery…it’s all downhill from here.

I loved it when Tam and him met again.  That was special….and I’m glad that Tam gave that kind of advice that sticks with a person, forever. 

I’m looking so forward to reading the rest of the series.

[Jianna]

Mat: Oh, dear, charming, scoundrel Mat. The whole Night of the Living Dead thing really was enjoyable. Also, really hoping the Tower of Ghenji is in the next book, I want Moiraine back!

It was more "Night of the Living Dead" than "Nightmare on Elm Street", wasn't it?  Not that I would know, mind you.  I don't watch scary movies!   

Mat: Matt continues to be my favorite character with the best storyline.  I love his humor and lucky-unluckiness.  The Tower of Ghenji just *has* to be in the next book…otherwise I’m going to be really mad!  hahaha

I was messaging a friend on Facebook who also enjoys the books, and we were talking about Mat.  I finally realized what it was about Mat in this book that bothered me so much.  Before "The Dragon Reborn", he was a whiny, sarcastic, snarky kid with occasional glimpses of something more. From the time he woke up in TDR, he has had this rich inner monologue going on.  It's been part and parcel of his character development.  It gave him depth and dimension.  There wasn't a whole lot of inner monologue in this book, and I missed it.  I'm not saying that he went back to being whiny, sarcastic or snarky (much), but that extra layer or two was missing.  Still lots of awesome but I'm hoping for more of the really great Mat that I grew to love so much!

[Parin Lament]

I finished it a week ago or so, enjoyed it mostly, though there are a few things.

The Perrin/Faile parts were sort of unecessary. They really didn't do anything except be "there." I think the only reason they were in the book at all was to show us where Tam came from at the end..Although someone(can't remember who, Nynaeve maybe?) mentioned seeing him with whitecloaks and having Morgase reveal herself as the former queen, which we never actually saw in the book, which means it's now been spoilered for when it (presumably) happens in the next one. I presume this is a result of having the book split into 3, but it seems like poor editing to have not caught that.

I've come to the conclusion that Perrin and Faile's entire storyline for the last 3-4 books was entirely irrelevant, which greatly annoys me. The entire point was to go get Messema. They got distracted along the way with alot of what I thought was pointless diversion(faile's capture for the sake of extending the storyline rather than because it actually added anything),  but I would have forgiven that if it turned out that Massema was actually important to anything, but no, instead he dies in a rather offhand matter at the very beginning of the book, which means that the entire thing has been a pointless waste of time.

Perrin also didn't feel very much like Perrin, I can't really pin it down but he felt pretty...empty...as a character. Part of it probably has to do with his wolf abilities. RJ always seemed to incorporate them seemlessly to the point that the reader took it naturaly, but Sanderson almost omitted them entirely, and then stuck them in haphazardly as if remembering "Oh yeah, he has these abilities too, I should mention them to remind people." None of it felt natural.

I dislike how hopper was portrayed. Up until now hes been this wise mentor to Perrin, but in this book he felt very juvenile, like the steriotypical dog that thinks about nothing but food and play.

Matt was ok, but he had something missing too, and i think jacy pinned it down with the inner monologue thing. I also think the humour was off. He was funny, but not Matt-funny. The entire "crafting fictional backstories" bit didn't feel in character at all to me. Talmanes's character semeed completely reversed, which sanderson even aknowledged in the story, which makes me think he did it on purpose..

Egwene was mostly great, I like how she slowly gathered support through out the storyline and how it payed off in the end. I don't like her self-rightousness though, I think the power of being amyrlin has definitly gone to her head just as badly as it did to Elaida, if in a different manner. I also think that grabbing the black sisters in the rebel camp was too soon, she should have waited until she had the whole tower. The black wasn't immediatly threatening, no more than usual, so there was no urgent need. Instead it feels like she did it as a cheap victory infront of her rivals(the hall) to fruther prop up her power, but as a result she let more than 3/4 of them get away(verin quotes there being 200 in total, but egwene only gets 50). Now they'll be much harder to root out than they would have been if she had waited, so that was a tactical failure i think.

Verin's reveal was awesome. never saw that coming.

Cadsuane annoys me. She refuses to take any blame for losing the male adam to semirhage, yet you can be sure that if it had been any other Aes Sedai in charge of keeping it, Cadsuane woul be tearing them a new one for their incompetance, but when it's her own fault no, it's no big deal at all. Biggest hypocrite in the book. 

Especially liked the part near the end where min says something like "this is what we get for thinking we can controle him." Finally someone understands. rand wouldn't have been nearly so badly off if they had understood this from the part. Him being pushed so close to the edge is as much their fault as anyone elses.

Speaking of Rand, I really liked the direction he went in this novel. His cold indifference to anything was much more chilling than his flairs of rage from earlier novels. Very well done. I think only that his redemption at the end was too sudden, sort of came out of nowhere to me. All of a sudden he just understands everything, kind of feels rushed.

I think his use of the True Power was very unexpected, holds all sorts of implications. Likewise the heaily implied fact that Rand and Moridin are linked in someway. Notice Miridin was favouring his hand shortly after Rand lost his, as if he felt the pain. I wonder if the reason that he's been commanding everyone not to kill Rand is because it will somehow kill him too...

re: forsaken deaths, I think Graendal is dead for good, I think it's too late in the game to still be bringing them back again now.

re: 3 become one. I don't think it's talking about the bonding of min+aviendha+elayne+rand. That's 4 people, not three. It's almost certainly about callendor. I think it's likely that it would be Elayne and Aviendha linking with Rand...there's not many who he would trust. It might also however be Nynaeve and that seanchan damane who's name i can't remember, being the 2 strongest female channalers in the world at the moment, andd that would cover the Viewing of how the seanchan girl helps Rand die. Alternatly, something I've been thinking about is that maybe is has something to do with using the Male and Female powers woven together with the True Power. Now that Rand apparently has acces to it, I can't help but wonder what would happen if all 3 were woven together, and also if it's possible for him to use both the male power and the true power at the same time...


All in all a great novel, Sanderson did a pretty good job all things considered. And in regards to the next novel having the tower of ghenji, the novel is going to be called The Towers of Midnight, which strongly implies both the tower of Ghenji and the Black tower.
 

[Garrison Bain]

(please excuse my spelling mistakes...I don't have a refernece at this time..*s*)
I have to agree with you completely about the Queen Morgase revelation from Tam…

That came out of the blue and it just seems like a total omission…especially since that little side story was one of the more interesting.  Balwar’s role…Talenvor’s historic love…and of course the fact that the Queen herself was in hiding.  Of all the things that I didn’t like in this book (which really weren’t that many)…this oversight was the most glaring and, in the end, most disappointing.

With that said…I guess there is the possibility that Sanderson will regress the story a little bit and catch us up on that storyline.  I really hope so…I was very interested to find out just how all that was going to play out.  I guess that’s one of the problems with trying to split up a full book into multiple volumes.  I just thought that they agreed to not traverse one story line too far in front of another…especially when they intermingle like Rand’s and Tam’s.

Still though, I went into this book knowing that Sanderson was NOT Jordan…and I came out pleasantly surprised and genuinely in Love with the series again. 

As for Perrin’s story…I think that Jordan was trying to get someone (Perrin in this case) to be in place to have a good relationship with the Seanchan.  Obviously, Rand doesn’t have the relationship…and Tuon is not inclined to see Rand as anything other than a tool that bows before the Crystal Throne.  So, there needs to be someone in place that the Seanchan seriously respect and can follow.  Mat is out of the question as he is High-blood now and WAY above everyone’s head as far as normal soldiers and people go.  (plus he’s off going after Moraine anyway) I’m hoping Perrin will be integral in getting the Seanchan to work with Rand…like maybe hunting all the Trollocs that seem to have invaded the Seanchan claimed land…or something.

Maybe his Wolf-dream thing will help somehow.  Although I have to admit that I don’t know where they are heading with that.

[Todd]

I must agree that the division of the book in some ways was not perfect as some have pointed out.

I have never liked Cadsuane, but I think both Min and Tam cut her down pretty well. I think Min pointed out fundamentally the problem with Aes Sedai, not just those in the room.

Rand after Semirage was a monster. You did see cracks, like when he thanked Nynaeve for caring for him when it came to the Borderlanders. I don't think his realization came to quickly. Before Semirage, Rand had agreed with Min he had become to hard. The last chapter with Rand was one of the best imo.

Perrin got better as the book wore on as a character towards the end. Though his part did seem pointless, but Perrin's whole part about after Faile's capture was pointless. I think it was closed out as best it could be given the circumstances.

Egwene, as a character she has always been a self-righteous jerk. As a character I've always disliked her, but as I said earlier it worked for me during her capture because it made her noble. I could sympathize with her and support he goals, because for once he cause was noble. However she is a typical Aes Sedai. As a character Egwene, imo, was always a weak character until this point. Before she was just a woman emulating other people, first it was Nynaeve, then it was Aes Sedai and then it was Aiel. Just a child trying to be those she hero-worshiped. I think RJ meant for that to show her background as uniquely qualified to be Amyrlin, since she is part Wisdom, part Aes Sedai, part Wise One. Except she behaves like every other Aes Sedai. I think both RJ and Sanderson botched that. Aes Sedai as a whole have become fools who think they are better and wise than everybody else. Egwene is no different.

One thing I found amusing is how Moridin wants to destroy the world, so there is nothing left. How very Murad of him.

As far as the characterizations, they were all a little off. I think Sanderson did the best with Rand and Egwene. Mat was probably the most off, but he was still obviously Mat. I think Sanderson did an admirable job creating the characters personalities we've known for so long.

[Todd]

One thing I wonder is, what will Rand be like in the next book? I am not so sure he is going to be instantly cured, but then again maybe he will be.

I think some of the reasons why some of you feel the ending is a bit rushed is that beause Robert Jordan would probably have written a lot more about the time Rand spent with the tinkers, more on his time wandering Seanchan controlled lands. In many ways it would have been nice if Sanderson had written more on it. If the books had been one long book the last chapter Veins of Gold would have been deeper into the story to to make it seem like more time had passed.

[Archelous]

One thing I wonder is, what will Rand be like in the next book? I am not so sure he is going to be instantly cured, but then again maybe he will be.

I think some of the reasons why some of you feel the ending is a bit rushed is that beause Robert Jordan would probably have written a lot more about the time Rand spent with the tinkers, more on his time wandering Seanchan controlled lands. In many ways it would have been nice if Sanderson had written more on it. If the books had been one long book the last chapter Veins of Gold would have been deeper into the story to to make it seem like more time had passed.

But, that would beg the question from hundreds of other people: What the hell did everyone do while Rand was in exile?

I'd freak out if the Dragon Reborn just dropped off the earth for 3-4 weeks when he was just saying: Tarmon Gai'don, it's like tomorrow bro. (Not what he would actually say, but I felt a little comedy would be needed there.)

I think Rand will still be the kind of leader he was, a little cold and heartless when he needs to be, but behind closed doors he'll be much more somber and try to be carefree.

Either way, I'm curious about the 'Three' I brought up earlier. Rand only trusts so many Aes Sedai implicitly (Or Channlers in general). Elayne, Nynaeve (As apparent in WH), Aviendha. I think since EotW/TGH, Rand has stopped trusting Egwene on the way, I don't think he would link with her. It will be interesting to see how that conflict comes to a head. The White Tower now unified will definitely be going to reign in Rand. I can't wait until Nynaeve and Egwene meet up again and butt heads. Not to mention Rand and Egwene trying to come to an agreement.

I do hope Tam sticks around Rand, perhaps become a general for him.

[Todd]

The 3 become one is interesting. One thing we all should remember is that Rand NEEDS Moraine to win Tarmon Gaidon. Is she one of the 3? Did she learn how to seal the bore while trapped in the Tower of Gengi? If Moraine is the 1st woman, who is the 2nd? Possibly Olivia (the Seanchan ex-damane)? It is probably Olivia because she is supposed to help Rand die so I think she'll be close to him when the bore is sealed. Makes sense that she would be apart of the circle given her strength in the power. Whoever leads the circle will need her reserves.

A thought about Moraine. Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear even though they are the same person. Is it possible Moraine is now stronger? I guess we'll find out.

[Garrison Bain]

Of course, about *anything* could've happened while in the Tower of Gengi...

...but what if Lanfear got stilled somehow?  When the Dark One transmutated her maybe she came back just a little weaker?  Kinda like Suain when Nyneave healed her stilling?

Who knows, really.  The Fox and Snakes might have made some deal with her.

[Garrison Bain]

One thing I wonder is, what will Rand be like in the next book? I am not so sure he is going to be instantly cured, but then again maybe he will be.

I think some of the reasons why some of you feel the ending is a bit rushed is that because Robert Jordan would probably have written a lot more about the time Rand spent with the tinkers, more on his time wandering Seanchan controlled lands. In many ways it would have been nice if Sanderson had written more on it. If the books had been one long book the last chapter Veins of Gold would have been deeper into the story to to make it seem like more time had passed.

I just finished Brandon Sanderson's first "Mistborn" book and I think I may have something to add to this point.

First of all, I loved this book, I was thoroughly hooked to the characters and really really enjoyed the end!  With that said, let me break it down...

Sanderson is *not* Jordan...he admits this openly and doesn't even attempt to BE Jordan.  However, I still think he attempted to change his writing method a little bit when writing TGS.  I noticed, while reading Mistborn, that a few areas where I thought maybe he could've expounded some...were not expounded.  It was a little disappointing, but, in the end it quickened the story up and made things roll along. 

Maybe I just like the kind of writing where things are described and worked over with infinite detail.  The Saga of the Seven Suns is another example I can think of...lots of great writing...little plot movement.  Anyway...there is a fine line between too little and too much.  Jordan, I think, walked on the "too much" side just a little too far for a lot of readers.  Sanderson, from my little knowledge of him, might walk on the "too little" side a little too far for my taste. 

Nevertheless, I still think he got the point across.  Although, to a old Wheel of Time dog like me...that last Rand chapter was just too clipped.  I would've loved to follow his mental journey a little more.

So, kudos to Sanderson for the attempt!  I still think he did a superb job...you just have to go into it with an open mind.

 
-Garrison Bain-

[Archelous]

Of course, about *anything* could've happened while in the Tower of Gengi...

...but what if Lanfear got stilled somehow?  When the Dark One transmutated her maybe she came back just a little weaker?  Kinda like Suain when Nyneave healed her stilling?

Who knows, really.  The Fox and Snakes might have made some deal with her.

Well it's all tricky, because the bond with Lan was cut... and that only happens with death, as stated by the characters at least. It could be a whole "nother dimension" thing.

But I believe Jordan/Sanderson commented that Lanfear was given less power by the DO as a "last chance" thing (If i'm not mistaken, Cyndane means that in the OT).