Author Topic: Big Three Bailout  (Read 2941 times)

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Offline Archelous

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Big Three Bailout
« on: November 17, 2008, 03:20:16 PM »
Just curious to hear some opinions on the matter, as I live in Michigan, it's a pretty important thing for me and my family.
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Offline Trelise Sedai

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Big Three Bailout
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2008, 03:04:28 PM »
They've kept that very quiet over here - haven't heard anything about it really...

Offline Todd

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Big Three Bailout
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2008, 03:52:49 PM »
GM is saying it isn't a bailout, but a loan that will be paid back! Why the Auto Industry needs another 25 billion already after just getting 25 billion is a bit scary.

Honestly, if GM gets anymore money they should be required to fire their CEO. This is the same guy who ran them into the ground. I know Ford just recently changed CEOs, and I think Chrysler did as well.
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Offline MalorGradan

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Re: Big Three Bailout
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2008, 03:58:31 PM »
I think it's a terrible idea just like every other bailout over this past year has been a terrible idea.

When any individual fails due to bad management, poor strategic planning, and straight-up greedy idiocy the federal government doesn't bail them out.

I know I sound harsh, but I'm sick of the federal government and the American taxpayer being used as an endless font from which to rescue all manner of failing ventures. Either nationalize everything and bailout everyone, or leave the market the hell alone.

Where's my bailout, federal government? My debt is at least the result of things beyond my control (i.e. unforseen health problems). It's not like I, you know, consciously destroyed America's urban electric mass transit systems so as to exponentially increase business, kept up a business model of giant, inefficient, gas-guzzling designs for decades beyond their viabiliy, have been environmentally irresponsible and led the fight against doing anything about climate change, and have fought tooth and nail to prevent the introduction of hybrid and electric vehicles into the American market....

No love for the auto industry here. No love for the mortgage industry that knowingly and aggressively peddled subprime mortgages to people wholly unable to afford them, or the insurance big-wigs who partied to the tune of $440,000 just days after securing an $85 million federal bailout meant as an emergency measure to "save the industry." It's a little hard to find sympathy when I can't get health insurance or government medical assistance even though I have chronic severe and near-debilitating conditions, when I have no benefits at work and no gigantic United Auto Workers union to fight for my rights, can't afford to save money, to say nothing of invest, and am looking at at least $150,000 in debt just to fund an education that might allow me to live decently. No love to the aviation manufacturing industry that dominates my local economy, when they scream bloody murder and threaten dire scenarios in an attempt to scare voters merely because one local County Commission candidate actually advocates fiscal responsibility.

It amazes me that so many of the whining, pleading executives seemingly don't understand why so many Americans are angry at them.

Yeah, I'm angry.

Offline G-Man

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Big Three Bailout
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2008, 12:16:50 AM »
I think it is ironic that the bastion and supreme protector and champion of capitalism is resorting to intervening in quite a communist/socialist way.

What do i mean?
The idea of socialism is to help everyone out in the country and if someone is having a hard time give them a bit of aid.

I don't agree with the bailout but not because of what they are doing but how they are doing it. If they were buying out the company then i  would commend them.
And with a majority share of the company they can chair the board and lead the firms back into profitability.
at which point the dividend can be reinvested into the government and things like infrastructure, health education, paying off debts etc.

Offline Geoff

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Big Three Bailout
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2008, 03:30:35 AM »
Socialism is the preferred end state of the extreme left.  People like Ted Kennedy, my beloved Senior Senator, would like nothing more than the creation of the perfect socialist society.  Next stop: Marxism.

Quote from: "G-Man";p="3498"

I think it is ironic that the bastion and supreme protector and champion of capitalism is resorting to intervening in quite a communist/socialist way.

What do i mean?
The idea of socialism is to help everyone out in the country and if someone is having a hard time give them a bit of aid.

I don't agree with the bailout but not because of what they are doing but how they are doing it. If they were buying out the company then i  would commend them.
And with a majority share of the company they can chair the board and lead the firms back into profitability.
at which point the dividend can be reinvested into the government and things like infrastructure, health education, paying off debts etc.
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Offline Geoff

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Big Three Bailout
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2008, 03:31:48 AM »
Well said!!

Quote from: "MalorGradan";p="3494"

I think it's a terrible idea just like every other bailout over this past year has been a terrible idea.

When any individual fails due to bad management, poor strategic planning, and straight-up greedy idiocy the federal government doesn't bail them out.

I know I sound harsh, but I'm sick of the federal government and the American taxpayer being used as an endless font from which to rescue all manner of failing ventures. Either nationalize everything and bailout everyone, or leave the market the hell alone.

Where's my bailout, federal government? My debt is at least the result of things beyond my control (i.e. unforseen health problems). It's not like I, you know, consciously destroyed America's urban electric mass transit systems so as to exponentially increase business, kept up a business model of giant, inefficient, gas-guzzling designs for decades beyond their viabiliy, have been environmentally irresponsible and led the fight against doing anything about climate change, and have fought tooth and nail to prevent the introduction of hybrid and electric vehicles into the American market....

No love for the auto industry here. No love for the mortgage industry that knowingly and aggressively peddled subprime mortgages to people wholly unable to afford them, or the insurance big-wigs who partied to the tune of $440,000 just days after securing an $85 million federal bailout meant as an emergency measure to "save the industry." It's a little hard to find sympathy when I can't get health insurance or government medical assistance even though I have chronic severe and near-debilitating conditions, when I have no benefits at work and no gigantic United Auto Workers union to fight for my rights, can't afford to save money, to say nothing of invest, and am looking at at least $150,000 in debt just to fund an education that might allow me to live decently. No love to the aviation manufacturing industry that dominates my local economy, when they scream bloody murder and threaten dire scenarios in an attempt to scare voters merely because one local County Commission candidate actually advocates fiscal responsibility.

It amazes me that so many of the whining, pleading executives seemingly don't understand why so many Americans are angry at them.

Yeah, I'm angry.
If life gives you lemons, make lemonade...
then go find someone who's life has given them vodka.

Offline Todd

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Big Three Bailout
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2008, 08:43:30 AM »
Socialism doesn't equal Communism, and Socialism doesn't mean you're on the road to Marxism. Supporters of something like Universal Health Care does not equal Socialists. This country will never be run like Europe, even though sometimes it would be nice since the French have the best health care system in the world and the British bailout actually seems to be working.

Quite honestly, I'd rather have real Socialism then the Socialism we've got now, which is Socialism for the rich. The bailout is a prime example of that, corporations get all the money to use to give stock dividends, bonuses and to buy other businesses, and none of it is going to people losing their homes. Not one penny is going to them. Corporate welfare is an abomination and that has been around for decades.
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Offline G-Man

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Big Three Bailout
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2008, 09:24:19 AM »
yeah pretty much. But the point i was making is that for all of the traditional US government preachings of kynesian economics and deregulation etc, the bailout is a very hypocritical action.

You are right though, bailing out the corporations instead of the people is not fair (nor is it going to help the economy for that matter, unless the government actually acquires the firms and makes their decisions for them).

Offline Jianna

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Big Three Bailout
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2008, 03:02:16 PM »
What do you do when you’re in a boat that’s sinking?  You bail for all you’re worth, and you patch holes, or you jump ship and swim for the nearest distant shore – and possibly drown in the process.

Are we sinking?  I don’t know about the rest of you but my feet are somewhere past damp.

Aaron’s question brings home a point, though.  There are how many hundreds of thousands of people employed by the auto manufacturers?   Not CEOs, bigwigs, but ordinary people.  Retribution (and make no mistake.  It would be retribution.) is all fine, well and good except for the negative impact it would have on the ordinary man or woman whose job it is, every day, to fasten a right fender on a Ford Fusion once that job is gone.  Half a million, or more, people out of jobs all of a sudden would be a pretty big rock to throw into the pond.  The ripples could very well swamp the boat we are all rather precariously sitting in.

I’m not happy about bail outs, either.  I totally agree that the average citizen is getting the short end of the stick here.  But the short end is better than no end, especially when that stick might be all that’s keeping the water from closing completely over your head.  My feeling is that we do what has to be done to keep that very large component of our economy going.  Then we look very, very, very hard at what got us here, and make damn sure it doesn’t happen again.

Bottom line is that we are all pretty much in the same boat.  I keep thinking of what Ben Franklin said… “We must all hang together or we will surely hang separately.”  Yeah, he was talking about the revolution.  But, in a way, so are we.
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Offline G-Man

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Re: Big Three Bailout
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2008, 04:16:30 PM »
One of the key advantages to capitalism is that the free market has it's own form of natural selection. Any inefficient companies, any firms where their production does not meet their consumption, anyone who doesn't pull their weight is weeded out. They go bankrupt and they cease to exist. Eventually the only companies that are around are lean mean economic machines.

Sometimes it takes a while, especially with the concept of credit where companies can live on borrowed time for quite a while before the honeymoon is over. But it happens, and one of the more catastrophic ways where the weak are mass culled is in a recession.

The problem with bailouts is that it interferes with this process. The weak and inefficient lumbering beasties in the market stay alive at the very cost of those who genuinely need that money to survive (the taxpayers). companies need money to survive as well, but let's face it, if HSBC dies or Morgan or any nasty olde company dies, who really cares as long as there is food on the table? if a person starves to death on the streets though? THAT is a travesty and a tragedy.

so unless (like i have said before) the government s are actually forcing these firms to change their ways amnd make better decisions its going to be a lot better for everyone to send that money to welfare instead.

Offline Archelous

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Big Three Bailout
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2008, 01:20:08 AM »
Quote from: "Jianna";p="3505"
What do you do when you’re in a boat that’s sinking?  You bail for all you’re worth, and you patch holes, or you jump ship and swim for the nearest distant shore – and possibly drown in the process.

Are we sinking?  I don’t know about the rest of you but my feet are somewhere past damp.

Aaron’s question brings home a point, though.  There are how many hundreds of thousands of people employed by the auto manufacturers?   Not CEOs, bigwigs, but ordinary people.  Retribution (and make no mistake.  It would be retribution.) is all fine, well and good except for the negative impact it would have on the ordinary man or woman whose job it is, every day, to fasten a right fender on a Ford Fusion once that job is gone.  Half a million, or more, people out of jobs all of a sudden would be a pretty big rock to throw into the pond.  The ripples could very well swamp the boat we are all rather precariously sitting in.

I’m not happy about bail outs, either.  I totally agree that the average citizen is getting the short end of the stick here.  But the short end is better than no end, especially when that stick might be all that’s keeping the water from closing completely over your head.  My feeling is that we do what has to be done to keep that very large component of our economy going.  Then we look very, very, very hard at what got us here, and make damn sure it doesn’t happen again.

Bottom line is that we are all pretty much in the same boat.  I keep thinking of what Ben Franklin said… “We must all hang together or we will surely hang separately.”  Yeah, he was talking about the revolution.  But, in a way, so are we.


Jacy pretty much hit the nail on the head in my ideas for this. Our local newspaper (for the best coverage on this Bailout and why it's necessary more than anything, check out some articles on Freep.com) has made some calculations and statements many people might not think about.

450,000 people are employed by Ford and GM dealerships. Not plants, not companies. Dealerships across America, if the Big 3 went bankrupt, those are instant job losses.

1 out of 10 people in America would indirectly go on a path to losing their jobs if the Big 3 go bankrupt.

1 out of 5 Americans jobs would be affected by the bankruptcy.

It's not something I think we should make a standing of, but the Big 3 ARE adapting to the changing views on Economics, Gas (and alternative fuels), as well as trying to make money.

(Not to mention, the Senate's proposal would take the 25 billion from the 700 billion given to the Banks...)

Also, can we blame this crisis entirely on the car companies? How badly has the credit crunch and the bank forclosures affected them, leading to Malor's points. Is this completely their fault?

I come from a family that has lived and breathed Ford, GM and Chrylser, so I'm obviously a bit biased. Ford has put food on my table for twenty years, and I can't help but wonder this as well:

Is it our fault they've failed? I've heard hundreds of arguments: They make gas guzzlers! Why wouldn't I buy foreign when it saves me money?

Perhaps it does save money, but my mother brought me home a unique and interesting tidbit seven years ago (Yep, before all of this madness): Everytime a family buys a foreign automobile, an American (whether it be blue or white collar) loses a job. It might not be true, but it's something to think about.

I don't think I've heard one human being not complain about outsourcing and how terrible it is, so why outsource your wallets?

Ford is making changes, from the 80 mpg Diesel they are releasing in Europe, as Todd posted I believe, to GM will have a completely electric and feasible automobile as early as next fall, the 2010 models.

As I said, I'm not happy with the buyouts, but I'm biased as well and have to look at just exactly how valuable our auto industry is. If we were to lose it, our nation and the global economy, would be crippled.

Steelworkers, transportation, locomotive transportation of parts, millions of people would be out of a job.

Not to mention, the Senate and House are making VERY stern and even abusive requirements in this lending, executives will not be getting this money and throwing parties, they'll be just happy they aren't losing their own jobs. Gone are the days of golden parachutes.

A bailout isn't what anyone wants, but as the philosopher Jagger once said: You can't always get what you want.

I've enclosed a few links to a few Freep articles I think are relevant.

Myths, Ripple Effects, Editorial against Bankruptcy

(Pardon me if a lot of this post was repetitive or nonsense, it's early and I've been working like a hound lately)
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Offline Archelous

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Big Three Bailout
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2008, 01:39:15 AM »
Quote from: "Todd";p="3493"
GM is saying it isn't a bailout, but a loan that will be paid back! Why the Auto Industry needs another 25 billion already after just getting 25 billion is a bit scary.

Honestly, if GM gets anymore money they should be required to fire their CEO. This is the same guy who ran them into the ground. I know Ford just recently changed CEOs, and I think Chrysler did as well.


Double post, but I felt the need to respond to this.

In 79 Congress granted Chrysler a bailout, which was then repaid in full 7 years before the deadline, not to mention the government also got a hefty share of Chrysler stock (At about 14 million then), Chrysler bought back that stock, with the American taxpayers making a profit of 300+ million dollars.

The CEO's and moneymakers in the Big 3 are definitely hated by all, but is that really what we're talking about when we say let them go bankrupt? I don't think so. I think of the millions of people in Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky and all of the other states where Big 3 Plants operate and influence every aspect of those economies.

Let Congress worry about the deal the Exec's get, let us worry about our fellow men who may well lose their livelihood.
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Offline Todd

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Big Three Bailout
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2008, 09:30:30 AM »
In all actuality, I do kind of support the bail out of the auto industry, if done right. Since the auto industry more directly, and indirectly hurts Americans then Wall St. does. Your example of the Chrysler bailout of why a bail out of the auto industry can work. The problem is the bail out Wall St. has been a joke, it has been done all wrong and the Bush administration has wasted 2 trillion dollars so CEOs at companies like AIG can go an expensive vacations on the taxpayers dime, even though every one of them should have been fired as a stipulation of getting the money.

The auto industry will get another bail out, remember they've already got one this year, when Obama get in office. If congress doesn't pass another one this year one will get done come after January 20th. His plans for the future of this country relies in big part on the auto industry turning itself around.

One thing that is torquing me right now though, is Republicans and anti-Union people coming out a blaming it all on the Unions. They are morons. The Unions may take some blame, but it wasn't the Unions that made Ford take a huge cash surplus when the auto-industry was booming and give it all away in dividends. If Ford hadn't done that they'd be doing fine right now, and might not have had to outsource their R&D to China to cut costs.
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Offline G-Man

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Re: Big Three Bailout
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2008, 08:05:11 PM »
Do you really think giving companies money is going to solve the problem?
Whatever got them into the mess they are in now will get them back into their mess. And what then? Will we bail them out yet a third time?
And let's remember that each time the government bails them out, its essentially from you guys, the innocent taxpayers. but we can also thank china as they slap another trillion dollars onto the US government's enormous debt.


It is a quick fix and it supports an inefficient and outdated system. It's quite obvious that Americans don't need a GM dealership on every corner or a loan company for that matter. its inefficient. If it was actually doing anyone any good for the economy then they would be making money from selling cars, not losing it.

And i know what you are thinking...
"if we don't bail these guys out then millions of people will lose their jobs"

Of course they will. but if we bail them out that only buys them soo much time before it happens again, meanwhile inflation is spriralling, the american dollar is dropping and the price of living starts climbing like jack climbed the beanstalk (and theres nothing golden up that bean stalk).

hence why if you really want to keep your people alive it's best to give it to them directly instead of giving it to obsolete and inefficient industries (by the time it gets to the employees, by the way, that 25bil ain't going to be much).

Americans have tough times ahead, but it's time to bite the bullet. Yes, millions will lose their jobs. But eventually everyone will lose them anyway as the economic situation just gets worse and worse. It is recession time and no amount of bailouts is going to help...