Topic: Wheel of Time Re-Read Impressions (Pt. 1 of 11)

[Archelous]

I figured as soon as Sanderson was chosen to write A Memory of Light, I would re-read the series. I just wrapped up tEotW and figured I'd post my thoughts on it.

Eye of the World has always been one of my favorites in the series, because it was one of the more pure novels in the franchise, it's attention isn't divided between so many perspectives. It mainly sticks with Rand and Perrin, with a little Nynaeve thrown in.

There isn't much I can criticize about this book, because it genuinely surprised me when I first read it, and I remember how shocked I was when I found out  Rand could channel, and he used it as early as rejuvinating Bela.

It leads up to a lot of things, and really pushes the reader into going "just one more chapter" before going to sleep, which I love. I've always been a fan of the reader knowing more than the characters, because the fun of it for me is finding out the characters reaction, when a bombshell the reader has known for a couple chapters is finally revealed.

I felt the final battle at The Eye was a little anti-climactic, but it fitted at the time, although it confused me a little now that I reread it, beause I recall in future battles with male forsaken, specifically Asmodean, that Rand has defeated them by severing the tie to the DO that allows the Forsaken to channel Sai'din without worry of the taint, perhaps that was something the DO gave them once more of them resurfaced, but it made me think as to why Aginor would tap the Eye instead of just using his link, if he had it.

My favorite chapter of the series was probably when Rand and Mat had set up camp in Camelyn, and Rand was trying to get a glimpse of Logain being processed into the Queen's Castle, and in the process falling into Elayne and Gawyn's lap. The entire chpter consisting of Rand meeting the Daughter-heir, his future wife, and also Morgase and Elaida, the only Aes Sedai he met besides Moiraine.

So, those are my particular thoughts on the re-read as of now. I started The Great Hunt, and am planning on posting another topic for that.

Anyone have anything else they particularly enjoyed about tEotW?

[The Raven]

I liked the whole book but i am just starting another reread myself probably somewhere around my 20th reread ad i will post my opinion after i finish EoTW

[Genia]

Funny, I had just began my own reread, on a whim. I m doing it entirely out of order, skipping from EotW to KoD and back to tSR.

Unlike Auron, Eye of the World didn't surprise me in the least. I happened to absolutely fall head-over-heels in love with the stunning prologue (hence my future love to he AoL and the people in it) and, really, it's all in the prologue, like a good fractal.

I knew Rand was Teh Dragon from Chapter One - I mean, here is Lews Therin, dying, and the prophecy saying he will be reborn. Next thing we know, wham! Rand al'Nobody-Thor starts seeing weird things. I figured he could channel, but I was of the impression that his first time was when he met that Darkfriend woman on the way to Caemlyn. He had the reaction sickness Moiraine described. Then he meets Ilyena - ahem! pardon me, Elayne - and of course, Ishy, that is, Ba'alzi, is haunting him in his sleep. My favourite chapters have got to be the Prologue - which is beautiiful, for one, and has a sane Ishy, for anoher (I love writing sane Ishy, he has the makings of a prophet, revolutionary, Neitsche and Heidegger, all in one) - and the Fal Dara chapters.

I still think Rand doesn't reach to LTTs ankles, and needs a serious beating.

[Todd]

I've been thinking about doing a re-read myself. The way I figure it if I start soon I might be finished before the last book comes out.

lol Genia, I remember reading the prologue the first time and having it confuse the hell out of me. I had to re-read it. After that I was hooked.

Personally I think as a person, and as a character, Rand is much stronger then Lews Therin. Just look at it this way, Rand new since the moment he first channeled he was screwed. Then he he is told that he is the Dragon Reborn, he does what any of us would do and deny it. He comes to accept it and begins to do what he has to do. In the process he abandons all hope of ever having a normal life.

Lews Therin on the other hand lived a normal life. He was trained to channel in a time where there was no fear of it. The war began an he became the hero the everyone needed. Rand was forced to become that hero all the while knowing it would kill him.

Both are fascinating characters but I think Rand is a few steps above LTT. I find Rand more fascinating because he is you and me, and how would be handle it if we learned about ourself what Rand did?

Of course this is all opinion, mine being no better then your own.

[Uncle Mordy]

because he is you and me

Take it back!

[Genia]

What he said.

Rand isn't at all 'like you and me'. LTT always seemed to me like a normal guy, who just so happened to pretty much rule a plnet, and apparently did so pretty well, and happened tohave a World war placed in his lap, with his clsest friends and advisors betraying him one after the other. And yet, he did not fall prey to the ridicuous "victory is everything' motto - otherwise, why didn't he just Balefire the world into seven hells? He certainly was in no position to be a petty autocrat wo, if he could, would control his subjects' thoughts.

Rand, on the other hand, is like someone who discovers he has a terminal ilness and starts shouting 'screw al doctors! I know better! In order to survive, I must eat more of this poisonous stuff!'. From day one it hasn't occurred to him to listen to reason, from anybody. Not because they are "Aes Sedai" and thus magic but because they are older, quite a few times smarter, and considerably more experienced than he. Rand is embodied for me in the scene in book 11 when he complains and angsts about the hunger and poverty in Tear. Lews therin - who apparently was at least something of an economist - starts saying something about creating jobs and stabilizing the economy and Rand... "Oh, he's crazy", and continues angsting! Not that this guy in your head ruled a planet or anything, of course he can't know what he's talking about.

Rand als has all the makings of a petty tirant. If it weren't for the fact that he is officially "the good guy there would be no way to tell between him and some of the more scrupulous Forsaken, at least if we just look at what they do, not what we get by hearsay. He even wants to control everybody and everything. "If I could make everyone obey,  would." His reaction isn't that of a man who is domed; his reactions are those ofa child who's sulking. especially since, after the source was cleansed, he was no less doomed than Lews Therin and his people thought they had been - they were losing, remember?

[Todd]

2 things.

1st. From what I've learned of the Aes Sedai in the books I wouldn't trust them as far as I can throw them. They are petty manipulators, most of whom if given a chance would put him away in a guarded cell in Tar Valon and then trott him out during The Last Battle like a prize. Aes Sedai have one thing in mind, how to expand the power Tar Valon and the Dragon Reborn is just another chess piece to maneuver to expand that power. There are of course the rare ones like Moraine, who towards the end Rand was listening to. Cadsuane is another I suppose.

2nd, petty tyrant? How is that? I don't see that at all. Is he rounding up innocent people and torturing them? Is he hanging people in the streets? How many tyrants hand over full countries to other people? Carhein to Elayne and Tear to two people who were rebelling against him in Carhien. No, a petty tyrant would have murdered them without a 2nd thought. He doesn't even move against the Lords he knows are plotting against him. If petty tyrants were made of leaders who want people who amount to aides doing as they say then there are a lot of democratically elected tyrants in the world.

[Archelous]

*l* I might flag you all! Off-topic! *g*

[Genia]

*l* I might flag you all! Off-topic! *g*

And then what?

[Genia]

2 things.

1st. From what I've learned of the Aes Sedai in the books I wouldn't trust them as far as I can throw them. They are petty manipulators, most of whom if given a chance would put him away in a guarded cell in Tar Valon and then trott him out during The Last Battle like a prize. Aes Sedai have one thing in mind, how to expand the power Tar Valon and the Dragon Reborn is just another chess piece to maneuver to expand that power. There are of course the rare ones like Moraine, who towards the end Rand was listening to. Cadsuane is another I suppose.

Well, here I disagree. Regarless of how much the boys rant and rave, the only Aes Sedai who was planning to use them for ay other ends than winning the last battle is Elaida - and we all know she's not the smartest cookie in the mould. Other than that, even at their most manipulative, those who were not Black Ajah were pretty much trying to manipulate our three Plot Devices into becoming leaders, fighting against the Shadow, and saving the world. Somehow, I can't blame them, especially when all they got in return (and sometimes before they even opened their mouth) was rudeness. And, incidentally, if it so happens that they gain something else in the process, that doesn't make them evil or untrustworthy - every human being has personal interests.

However, that wasn't what I was saying. Rand doesn't listen to anyone, Aes Sedai or no. My point was; it doesn't matter if they are or they aren't - they're mostly older, more experiencedd, and considerably more learned than him. And yet he still wouldn't listen to anyone, regardless of whether they gave him good advice or not.

Okay, perhaps he's not a Stalin or a Pol Pot... but he sure reminds me of Bush.

[Todd]

You're right, Rand does have a problem listening to people. There is no denying that. A lot of it is from Elaida's stooges sticking him in the box and another Aes Sedai (forgot her name, another reason why I need to re-read lol) bonding him to force him to obey. However he had that problem before hand and those events exacerbated the problem. Although his distrust of Aes Sedai is well warranted, even the Aes Sedai from the exiled Tower tried to intimidate Rand.

There are those he does listen to, though they are few, Cadsuane to an extent, General Bashere, Mat, Perrin. Min, Aviendha and Elayne.  If all of them were around him  more often he'd probably have an easier time of things.

[Todd]

Oh, and Aaron, yes this is off topic. So what? :p lol

This is a fun discussion, I just wish more people would take part!

[Genia]

Elayne Min and Aviendha? You ahve got to be joking. In my entire memory, every discussion between Rand and his women went something like:

"Do this."
"No."
"You really should..."
"No"
"Pretty please? I'll be your slave forever."
"I love you, you are very pretty and I will protect you. *hum, thumb ear*"
*conversation over, Rand does things his way.

Cadsuane he listens to only because Min had her viewing about her teaching him something he must know. And Cadsuane used that to force him to agree to accept her as an advisor, and be polite to her. If it weren't for the viewing, he would long since have either killed her, or at least tossed her out the front door, having severed her from the source first. He does listen to Bashere, sort of, because he knows he's not a very good field commander.

Oh, by the way, him "giving" Cairhien to Elayne doesn't count as a generous gift; it more counts as a whim of the dictator to please his pretty wife. Not to mention Elana wouldn't have dreamt of claiming the Sun Throne, and has less right to it than quite a few other people. So he just went and bought his wife an island on taxpayers' money, so to speak.

[Todd]

Elayne is from house Damodred, so her claim to the Sun Throne is one of the strongest claims out there. I would hardly call it a gift to his pretty wife, it is pretty obvious Rand has no wish to rule over any countries. The only one he seems to keep for himself is Illian, and they crowned him king as soon as he ran off Samuel.

Rand has gone to Elayne in the past on how to rule a country and about laws.

Aviendha, you may have a point since I can't think of anything he's ever listened to her about or that she has offered up advice about.

Min is probably the person he listens to the most. Cadsuane not being thrown out on her ass is a good example, thank you for touching on that.

Cadsuane, it shouldn't matter why he listens to her it just matters that he does. Plus, when has Rand so cruelly severed somebody who just annoyed him? The only ones he ever severed were the ones who were shielding him while he was held in the box.

I also remember Rand listening to advice from the Wise Ones, to an extent, and the Aiel Chiefs, mostly Rhuarc (sp?).

Is Rand a jack ass? Certainly yes. He has issues, he doesn't deal with stress well and he has a temper, I won't deny that. However he is hardly a petty and cruel dictator who only does things to please himself. Even his interaction with Aviendha, Elayne and Min, which often seems to be the center of most of the ire people feel towards Rand, is mostly him trying to protect them from him. He has also done many things to improve the nations he has conquered, most notably Carhien with his investments in scholars and engineers to advance knowledge and his moving that idea to Tear and Illian. Yes it is in big part to help him fight against the Shadow, but it is also something helping the world as a whole.

I am not arguing that Rand is a likable guy, if he was he wouldn't be so polarizing. I do argue with the idea that he is some cruel dictator. He has been anything but, especially when you compare him to the heads of state he replaced, or the ones the Forsaken replaced before Rand replaced them. We also have to remember that the nations Rand has conquered, outside of Carhien who were under attack by the Shaido, were all nations controlled by the Forsaken. He isn't out there trying to conquer the world so it can be his play thing.

[Uncle Mordy]

I wouldn't call Rand a tyrant myself, since he lacks the maliciousness that the term implies, but he happens to be an absolutely horrible leader who has no concept of civil liberty. He's completely self-righteous and ruled by paranoia, and he has neither the intelligence nor wisdom to get away with either of these. For reasons completely unbeknown to everybody, he actually listened to what Ba'alzamon said in his dreams in the first few books and suddenly stopped listening to the Aes Sedai - and soon thereafter anyone.

Of course, this is hardly a failing unique to Rand: it seems that nobody in the WoT books is able to confide in other people or trust somebody else's advice. In fact, it seems to me that the only time that somebody listens to another's advice is when that other person is a darkfriend or Forsaken or Padan Fain. *grumble*

As for the Aes Sedai, well, they're totally full of themselves. They act like they, and only they, have any idea of what's going on or what should happen. Furthermore, they act like only they have the right to that. Top that off with their bullying nature and... Yeah. Unpleasant.

The Aes Sedai have been horrid from the get-go. Rand's trying his best to catch up. I do like Genia's analogy of Rand and Bush because it makes me think of how the current US administration acts like it's living in a completely different reality than the one we're all in, and Rand acts that way a lot... Of course, everybody in WoT acts like they and only they know everything (unless, it's a guy regarding women, in which case everybody except him knows women).